You Were Never Separate. Physics Finally Caught Up.

It has been measured. In 2022 the Nobel Prize in Physics went to three researchers whose decades of experiments confirmed that our universe has to be non-locally entangled, in other words inseparable, for quantum physics to work at all, and that prize is only awarded for settled science. In 2018 a consortium of universities entangled photons in a laboratory with starlight from 600 light years away, in an avalanche triggered by light from an active galactic center 12.2 billion light years out. Dr. Jude Currivan reads this as evidence that separateness is the appearance, not the structure. Your Energy Field Has Been Measured. And It Changes Before You Get Sick. covers the measurable side of this closer to home.

The materialist assumption is that mind arrived late, once matter became complex enough. Currivan argues the evidence points the other way: that universal mind and consciousness are fundamental to how our universe appears at all, and that energy, matter and spacetime are its appearance rather than its foundation. Her sharpest version of it is this: mind and consciousness are not what we have, they are what we and the whole world fundamentally are. That reframes the brain as a receiver rather than a generator. Your Brain Built the World Before Your Senses Reported It goes deeper into the perception layer.

Currivan says no, and the argument is specific. When RNA reads DNA, roughly one in ten thousand readings produces an error. If evolution ran on those errors, complexity would break down rather than build up, and she notes that mutations almost always end in disease. Instead the cell corrects that rate down to less than one in a billion, which is an enormous investment in coherence rather than in randomness. She adds that evolution also moves through reticulate assembly and horizontal gene transfer, where viruses, bacteria and fungi exchange information directly. Your Body Is Not a Machine sits on the same argument from the body's side.

This is where the conversation turns personal. Currivan describes the worldview of separation as a disease in itself, something that fragmented the collective psyche, and she draws a line between curing and healing: healers do not heal anybody, people heal themselves, and what a practitioner offers is companionship in that. Healing here means remembering the wholeness you are already part of, which she says also removes much of the fear around dying. What Trauma Really Is, And the Deeper Meaning of Healing maps that layer, and if you want to work with it directly, the Quantum Diagnostic Session and The Science of Healing & Enlightenment go several layers past any single conversation.

Lightly cleaned for readability, with the opening and closing pleasantries trimmed. Speaker labels are deliberately left out because the auto-generated markers are unreliable, so Ale's questions and Jude's answers run together as one conversation.

So you are a lifelong researcher into the nature of reality serving the collective healing and the conscious evolution for many years. You started in your early days as a senior international businesswoman. You will give us a hint a little bit about that in a sec. But now you're the full member of the Club of Rome and the fellow of the World Academy of Art and Science.

And for anyone that is not very familiar with this organization, we're talking about one of the most influential scientific organizations in the world that saw among its founders Einstein, Oppenheimer and many more. And they asked you to do something very interesting. I will ask you a question about this just in a sec. But first of all, I always love to start the conversations with a little bit of story.

You know, kind of connecting the dots of your own personal evolution into how are you doing what are you doing right now? Well, I'm 74 years old, Ale. So, that's quite a long journey. Quite a long story. But I began life. I was born the daughter and the daughter and granddaughter of coal miners in the north of England. So my upbringing was very modest and very community oriented and I was a bit out like a fish out of water in many ways because from very early on I was experiencing the world in what sometimes are called noetic ways or mystical ways multi-dimensional ways.

I've been walking between worlds since I was very young. And I didn't share that with anybody until I was well into my late 20s, even older than that. So, my upbringing was a real sort of dance really of what I was exploring and experiencing about the nature of reality and how I was sort of trying to contextualize that in a sort of a community that was very grounded, very loving, but very grounded.

But my fascination with and curiosity with the nature of reality itself really grew from those direct experiences which continue to this day and I also wanted to understand as you say the science of what I was experiencing. So that was part of the journey. But also what was wonderful for me is I found ancient wisdom, especially the wisdom of ancient Egypt and ancient India to actually speak to me about my direct experiences in ways that my school teaching and my environment did not.

So my whole life's really been this journey of ancient wisdom, indigenous teachings, leading edge science, direct experience, the nature of consciousness and for 25 years I was in corporate life in international business which grounded me in a different way. So it's been a very scenic route to this point. Definitely amazing. The reason why I invited you in the podcast is because I've heard a lot about the work you've done especially you know reconnecting the dots.

It's always very interesting for me to find fellow speakers that can share stories about at the fundamental truth there's just one story and you've been asked to do you were telling me in the pre-in like kind of like a shock in the sense that it was the first time I heard it and you been asked to write a paper or a piece on the unitive science of the living universe.

So you told me something here at Wholegrain Wisdom we are you know reconnecting the dots but you're saying you're going beyond you're beyond the convergence. Tell us a little bit about this for anyone especially that is you know kind of at the beginning they understood there is way more to the materialist reductionist conversation as you said they didn't teach them at school unfortunately very few probably had.

So bring us forward into where are we today in the understanding at least of this. Well, thank you for that and I do feel it's timely because our worldview for the last couple of centuries really has been based on a science a science that investigates through reductionism. In other words, taking apart things to find out what they're made of. Now, that's all it's it's great as a as a methodology, but it's only a partial methodology if you're trying to understand the whole world because the whole world cannot be fully understood by taking it into its constituents.

And what we're realizing now is that is that is truly fundamental because everything in existence is innately relational and interdependent with everything else. So we've had a worldview that on the basis of that reductionist approach has viewed the universe as essentially mechanistic and made up of separate objects. Now of itself as a science that would be one thing but its technologies drove the industrial revolution.

And so it didn't just it just wasn't the technology and the science of the industrial revolution. It was the economics. It was the financial system. It was education. It was governance. It was hierarchical organizations and it was a worldview that in essence didn't just allow but encouraged exploitation extraction because it saw the world separate from ourselves. It saw ourselves as being apart from rather than a part of nature.

And we've now come to an unsustainable point where all of that journey cannot go on in the way it's has been it seems to me. And isn't it wonderful? I think it's wonderful. But at this very moment, the evidence is piling up to turn that worldview on its head and inside out. And instead, the it's the evidence that's driving this emergent change in our understanding. It's not just wishful thinking or even theoretical framing.

It's the evidence at all scales of existence from the tiniest to the whole of our universe and across many different fields of research that are coming to the same understanding that instead of a essentially a dead universe instead of a an accidental universe instead of a universe that's somehow managed to evolve from simplicity to complexity and individuated self-awareness where somehow mind and consciousness popped out somewhere quite far down the line.

That mind and consciousness, universal mind and consciousness is fundamental to the appearance of our universe, which means that it's no less real, but it's not. We're realizing that the evidence is showing that the 20th century science of energy, matter, and spacetime isn't the deepest nature of the reality of our universe. Now what that's doing is it's also showing that our universe meaningfully exists in its entirety as a whole where its whole is expressed through wondrous diversity and on this evolutionary path and we are part of it.

Yeah. Innately we are inseparable from it. But that as you say isn't just converging with wisdom teachings. It's it's coming to a point where, you know, it's not saying, well, science is saying this and wisdom teachers are saying that and they're coming close together. They're intermeshed. They're intermeshed and they're showing us how we can not just understand the world of which we are an inseparable part as participants in a living universe, but what that means for us in the choices we make.

And so the Club of Rome invited me to write this discussion paper back in March on the unitive science of a living universe. Amazing. You told me something when we spoke the first time that it was really shocking to me in the sense that you brought the Nobel Prize of 2022 that was given to the research that it was showing that the universe is literally fully quantum entangled and you can tell us a little bit for the layman in simple words what does it even mean?

But so it really showed me we're not we're not in a conversation of trying to prove anymore, right? As you said, it's not theory. It's it's literally already been proven. Yes. Why are we not there yet? For a reason that I think it's we're not just talking about science here. We're talking about a revolution. And we're talking about what I call a revolution of our consciousness, who we are in the world.

Because don't forget, most scientists don't have the experiences that I was fortunate enough to have from four years old, which from a very early age didn't put up an artificial barrier between, you know, the physical world and one say the spiritual realms. For me, there was no barrier. There was a there was there were boundaries. There was differentiation. But there was no separation.

And so I didn't have this sort of wall against which I sort of was trying to put the evidence. And very early on and certainly at Oxford University where my mentor Dennis Sciama was the mentor of Steven Hawking. I always remember Dennis saying follow the evidence wherever it leads. And I was willing to do that. And I think more and more younger scientists are and also interestingly scientists who've come to the end of their career and now they're emeritus and they could pretty much say what they want to are saying the same thing but I think the key thing now is the evidence is becoming so compelling and if you're a good scientist at the end of the day you'll follow the evidence but I would say this is far more than a scientific revolution because it literally turns upside down how we've applied that mechanistic science to the world.

So, it's really inviting us, as I often say, to remember who we really are. Remember that we are participants in a living universe. And then what does that ask of us? Because if we see the world through a lens of wholeness instead of a lens of separation, we not just see the world very differently, but I would suggest we care about it much more profoundly when we know we're part of it. It's rather like it's an extended family. We love our families.

We may not, you know, feel that empathy towards folks who are more distant from us, but the reality of is we're all a human family. We're all a planetary family and we're all ultimately a universal family. When I started I still remember when I started digging into these topics you know for me like the awakening journey has been kind of forced if we can say this from a physical perspective in the sense that I've always been an entrepreneur and I was working so hard and so many long hours that my body was literally shut down and I started to get panic attacks right and from there I got into meditation and then suddenly I discovered all the world of the eastern sciences.

I got into Tibetan Buddhism meditation. Then I started to attend the classes and I still remember the llama or any teacher that was present. They were telling us this concept of wholeness and non-separation. But it was very hard for me to actually understand what it meant because they were doing, you know, the classical metaphor of the sea and the ocean and the fact that if you look at the ocean, it seems all the same thing, but then when you zoom in from the top, then you start to see waves and then you start to see, you know, the whitewash of the waves.

And then would you say that this is different than the ocean itself is just a different form? But I could only really understand what this meant when I started to look at the science and especially what in for many years we forgot or decided to forget this is a different conversation about science which is you know the nature of the ether that the quantum vacuum whatever name that you want to use for this I think for anyone that is doing their own journey of connecting the dots this is very important.

How can you bring us into this understanding of what the ether is or whatever the specific name that you want to define it with and how does it connect to the physical manifestation of what we see what we perceive. Well, whatever name we want to call it, the understanding now, the evidence is showing this that the quantized energy matter and the spacetime of our universe is its appearance.

And we can say that with confidence because the evidence is showing us the same mathematical patterns are underpinning all of what we call quantized energy matter. But also they're made up of information and meaningful information and digitized information. So the ones and zeros of our digitized technologies through which we're communicating now take meaning whether it's my voice or your image or whatever it may be. Translate that into long streams of ones and zeros.

Scoot it down a satellite, a cable or whatever and reassemble it into an image, into a voice, into our communication. So when we take that understanding and we're realizing from the study of black holes, we're realizing it also from these same mathematical relational patterns that are meaningfully informed at the most tiny pixelation of our universe's reality. Just as for us, we've got the high definition you know images.

Our universe creates its appearance pixelated at the so-called or so named Planck scale which is as tiny to an atom as the atom is to the whole universe as it now is. So what we're realizing through many strands of discovery and evidence is that the appearance of our universe emerges in the form of meaningful information as energy matter and spacetime. And we need both and they're not the same.

And so the story of our universe and its framing can actually be framed without any new laws of physics but just seeing with new eyes. So restating for example laws of what are known as thermodynamics to laws of information or infodynamics takes us to that next step where we see this gorgeous beautiful framing that the reality of our universe its appearance emerges from deeper realms non-physical realms of causation. That's where the eastern traditions come in.

That's where the spiritual traditions come in. But what I would say is unity is not uniformity. That deep cosmic ocean of and that's where we get trapped probably. That's where we get tricked by the appearance. Yes. Well, it's two things, isn't it? It's the appearance that appears to be separate when in fact it's its unity differentiated. But I think the other way is you can go back to some traditions that talk about I am the ocean.

And I am the Yeah, we are. But what I would describe us as is microcosmic co-creators of our universe. But because it's also holographic, we have access to the whole as well. So it's like if you have an image, we are like a pixel in the image of our universe. Participants in its overall reality. We're like cells in its body just as we're formed of trillions of cells as a community of life.

Then we are cells unique cells but inseparable and differentiated and within the whole body of our living universe. I guess the question could really be would you think that your blood cell would consider itself any different than a white cell or whatever other type of cell within the same body right I would say it would I mean we know more and more and more about the informational multilevel absolute incredible nature of the meaningful communications that actually enables our bodies needs to be coherent.

You know, from the moment of gestation through to the moment where we come to the end of our lives, you know, that coherence is only able to happen because of the intricate dialogue multilogue always happening not just between all of ourselves, but within the cells as well. And realizing that so many of our cells are not even human. We're part of a vast community of life that includes fungi and bacteria and viruses, you know.

And when we look at ourselves that way, we can perhaps expand that understanding to our whole universe whose journey has been on nearly 14 billion years from initial simplicity, profoundly relational, interdependent from that original moment, the first moment of what I call an ongoing big breath, all the way to this moment as part of a coherent unfolding emergent story of ongoing creativity and evolutionary potential. What a story. It's our story.

It's amazing. And it does bring us back into authority and you know the concept that we are actually participating actively in all of this. We're not just getting it smashed on ours and we don't really have any free will to do what's happening. This brings me into another question that I have for you which is you know the role of intention.

The way that I used to explain in the courses of Wholegrain Wisdom and the kind of mental image that I made for myself is kind of like you have all of these unformed potential energy that it can be called any name depending on the tradition that you like the most. And then it kind of goes into kind of like a channel, a funnel better and it gets molded through the intention to then you know print out your physical object or whatever physical appearance that you might like.

And I have a beautiful image in one of my slides. Eventually, I will put it into the video itself because it's really like, you know, the Play-Doh as a kid and then you have a mold of a toy that he presses it through the intention and then it comes out a little rhino or a little dinosaur or whatever. Right. This is kind of like how I imagine it in a very childish way how it all works.

Bring us a little bit more scientific conversation to understanding where science is finally giving, you know, the value that it needs to have the role of intention and all of this. Absolutely. Well, we are self-aware beings and yet so much of what we are and often do is beneath our conscious radar. I mean, I'm not thinking of how my heart's beating in every moment or my lungs are breathing.

I mean one of the great teachings of the eastern traditions of course is breath work because when we bring our attention on our breath that brings us present in the here and the now it deepens our sense of coherence and it's from that coherence that intention can actually focus itself because you know if a lot of our way of being just is not conscious. Okay. But the bit that is conscious itself can be quite distracted.

If you think of a light bulb in a room, a 100W light bulb will light a room, but its light is a white light. So it's of all the colors of the visible spectrum. It shines out in the room in different directions. And that's lovely. But if you take the same amount of energy and you focus it in a laser, you can cut through steel. So intention is really taking the sort of the white light of the bulb into the laser of what we're focusing on.

But that really does begin with attention because if we're all over the place, then we're not paying attention. So we're not able to be here and now and present. And therefore our ability to intend and therefore come into that focus, create that mold, create that impression is limited. And that's all fine. And it's what we choose and how we choose to be in the world.

I mean for me I'm less concerned now with any spec I went through a whole probably decade of very specific intending. I became a really great intender. You manifested very well. Absolutely. You follow all the courses. Of course. And yes indeed. But what I found was the more I continued on my own journey of inner discovery and open myself to the wholeness of the world and what I call the universal heart.

What I appreciated was that I'd been focusing my intention through my ego. Rather than opening my intention to be a conduit for service to serve the good of the whole in the world. So that is now my intention to open myself as best I can every day to be in service to the good of the whole. And so all the specifics of that have just for me got to a point where they're just eased away. And the universe will take care of that.

If I take care of being as clear a reed as I can be, as clear a conduit of love as I can be, then the specifics of the intention no longer concern me. I trust the universe to enable me to serve in a way that serves not just the good of a whole but my own well-being. Yeah, it took me a lot of time to get even close just tiny close to the realization that you're mentioning. I don't think I'm definitely fully there.

I guess I never said I was by the way. I never said I was. I think this goes very close to the concept of liberation that they always taught me in the Tibetan schools of you know the ascension path if you will. I don't know if this can be treated from a scientific lens but I guess when you do this type of conversation to me it always brings me kind of a missing link to the higher self concept because you cannot really get fully what you just said or at least for me I couldn't really get there if I didn't connect to a higher concept of ourselves.

Can you bring this from a scientific lens? Are we there yet? I don't think we're there yet, but I think we're opening up with this evidence that I'm sharing and that I write about in the discussion paper and my books and we have it also on the website wholeworld-view.org. This understanding of a living participative universe whose wholeness whose unity is expressed in differentiation but not separation.

And going back to what you were sharing earlier, one really important development Ale was in 2022 when the Nobel Prize of Physics was given to three researchers who for decades had been experimentally increasing the scale at which a prediction of quantum physics had put forward very early on, which was that for quantum physics to work at all, our entire universe had to be what's known as non-locally entangled. In other words, inseparable.

And most recently in 2018, a consortium of universities were able to entangle photons of light in a laboratory with starlight from 600 light years away. The whole what's called avalanche of entanglement was triggered by light from a very active, incredibly active galactic center 12.2 billion light years away. Now that's cosmological scale.

And what that showed was that theoretical prediction to experimentally cosmological scales and that was so compelling that the Nobel Prize for physics was given for this understanding in 2022 which is only given for settled science. So this really was a threshold in terms of this concept of an entire universe, our entire universe existing and evolving in its entirety as a whole.

And that's really the foundation with all the other evidence that we have and across many fields of research for what I wrote in the unitive science of a living universe. Amazing. I often have arguments, you know, with the people that they really believe something is true if it's peer-reviewed officially. And the data that you're bringing us here, it's so fundamental.

And so for anyone that is still, you know, in the doubt or just want to make their own research, go there and study these examples because it's really amazing where we're going. And as you were saying at the beginning, it's really a matter of making a revolution on people's mindset and people's view of what we've been educated because at the end of the day, if we were educated on these concepts that for sure they're proven since many years, we would already be going way faster, right?

It's a lot of work of unremembering and forgetting the old useless things or at least incomplete rather than proving what it was. I think that's absolutely right and somebody made a really good point to me which I think is worth emphasizing that this worldview of separation and mechanization is not a global perspective. Indigenous traditions, spiritually based teachings and traditions, ancient wisdom have told us this for millennia.

And it's our western reductionist science that has brought us the economics and all the rest of it we were talking about earlier that is being turned on its head. But is so prevalent now that we really need to go back to those fundamentals and realize that science is now coming alongside them is meshing with them to really I would say heal the disease of separation the illusion of separation which has been a disease in that it's really fragmented our collective psyche and now we have the opportunity at a point when we really need it to remember and to heal and to undertake literally a revolution of our self-awareness, our consciousness of who we are, literally who we are in the world.

Yeah, I love this. Let me start to get to the end of this amazing conversation. And in the pre-in when we talked the first time, you told me like in very simple words, but it's crazy because you know when the wisdom is there, you can really say so much in very few sentences that physically like with all the sciences that we have at our disposal today.

We already proved there are so many other earthlike planets and there's so much life and the DNA and the role of this you know some people call it antenna some other people call it in many other ways for somebody that is not yet you know into the nitty-gritty of all of the details and all of the functioning is just maybe left with the simplistic explanation that we got at school of what the DNA even is. What can you tell us?

Well, for me as a cosmologist and also as an evolutionary biologist is the amazing evolutionary journey of our universe from its simplest 13.8 billion years ago to this point now. And what we now appreciate is that even before planetary systems come into being with planets that are capable of harboring and nurturing more complex biological life that all the building blocks of biological organisms already came into evolutionary being after a number of generations of stars had lived and died and at the end of the day the really massive ones sort of explode as supernova and all of their chemical nutrients as it were, their elemental nutrients are spread throughout the galaxy and actually form what are known as interstellar molecular clouds.

Now, in those molecular clouds are like tiny little chemical factories that take those elements and there's vast amounts of water ice in them. Very low temperatures. So massive amounts of water ice. But all of the elements that then in those tiny little dust grains within the molecular clouds go on to form all the basic building blocks of biology. So, we're talking about amino acids that, you know, build up to proteins of our bodies.

We're talking about lipids, the sort of the fats and the sugars. Crucially, and we've discovered this, we've been able to show this spectroscopically on the molecular clouds, but almost a couple of years ago, a robot was sent to a 4.6 billion year old asteroid called Bennu in our solar system. And it was able to capture and the robotic arm was called OSIRIS which I thought you'd like but OSIRIS was able to capture some material from Bennu and bring it back to Earth where it was analyzed and when it was analyzed not just amino acids were found there and other building blocks but the basic nuclear bases of DNA and RNA were found in other words in those molecular clouds because Bennu is one of the oldest remnants of our very early solar system.

From those molecular clouds are birthed planetary systems and the planetary systems are already birthed with the ability to go on to further evolve and develop biological life and complexity that of themselves couldn't go any further without planetary homes to sustain them, watery homes to sustain them. So this whole journey has been an extraordinary progress I would say purposeful progress because with mind and consciousness being shown to be universal and to be more fundamental, mind and consciousness aren't what we have.

What all the evidence is pointing to is that mind and consciousness aren't what we have. They are what we and the whole world fundamentally are. So our universe is truly a living entity of cosmic mind that has gone on this extraordinary evolutionary journey each step of the way from simplicity to greater complexity to self-aware beings such as ourselves that can have these conversations that can look out in the stars and see where we come from to realize we're not only just stardust.

The star seeds with the seeds of stars continuing that amazing journey of evolution and purpose and realization. What an incredible story that's ours now to share and to remember and to participate in as we move forward. Yeah, it's really amazing. I feel the only best way to close this episode is maybe I ask you this question for somebody that is still believing into you know the random mutation story, the survival of the fittest conversation.

What can they do to definitely move forward? I don't necessarily think that facts change people. I think experiences change people, feeling change people. So, but I would also say if people are open to this story, to this understanding that is founded on the evidence, just to be open to an appreciation of the magic and miracle of this world and really perhaps gift themselves the joy of being in nature and just sitting and being with our planetary home because that deepens relationships in my experience.

That deepens what we care about and how we care about it. But just to go back to your point about random mutations, I've written about this both in the story of Gaia but also the Club of Rome discussion paper. Mutations almost always end in disease. They very rarely come good as it were. So what we find in cells is that when cells want to build proteins or want to create themselves and move forward something like one in 10,000 times that the DNA is read results in error.

Okay. So when the RNA goes to the DNA unzips it reads the message that it then seeks to sort of create amino acids and therefore proteins. One in 10,000 is a random if you want to call it that error. The point is the cell doesn't just take that forward. It has the most intricate exquisite ways of reducing that error rate from one in 10,000 to less than one in a billion. It's a very evolutionary sophisticated way of continuing the coherence of a biological organism.

If it was just random mutations, we would not have undertaken the evolutionary journey to this level of complexity of our bodies. But because from the very early point, RNA work together with DNA to ensure that meaningful information could both replicate and retain coherence in biological organisms. And we also now know that when biology goes into sort of evolutionary overdrive rather than slow through the DNA line that something called reticulate assembly happens.

Horizontal gene transfer happens not just linear horizontal. So viruses, bacteria, fungi, all come into this informational dialogue that very quickly can take evolutionary progress forward. It's happened time and time again throughout the whole history of our planetary home. So the idea that random mutations somehow drive things is absolutely countervailed by the evidence. Amazing.

And you serve me the best closure and closing possible because you know the essence of what we do here at Wholegrain Wisdom is not just to tell stories. It's to experience all of this. We have countless programs and courses and you know all of the practical experiences to really do this. And I always say one thing disease or any kind of you know unwellness in ourselves is the signal.

It's not the problem but is the signal of something greater kind of telling you hey watch out you're going to a direction that doesn't serve you. You can keep going because we have free will but if you go that way it's going to be tougher. Is going to be more challenging. Why go there? Why harm yourself if you can avoid it? And you're giving us the data from the science, you know, all of the very physical tangible experimentation that has proven that there is no randomness here.

It's all very well intended. Yes. Right. So if you once you open up yourself to understand that there is intention after everything then you also start to open up to understanding what is that intention and that's where the journey of healing and self-realization and self-awakening can really start and can really get super fast because you finally understand the mechanism. You're not here suffering or just doing something you don't like for random reasons.

You have the choice and you can change that. I agree and as a healer of many decades, I would also differentiate between what I call curing and healing because sometimes in our journey and people have come to me with terminal illnesses and I've sort of shared with them first of all I think healers we don't heal anybody. People heal themselves.

But what we can be is a companion and a support and a fellow traveler that we can offer and serve. But what I would say is that in those circumstances, I've shared with people maybe this is not about curing, but it can be about healing. It can be about remembering the wholeness of who you are and what you're a part of.

And I found that is both fundamental but also offers incredible profound comfort actually of realizing that we don't need to be afraid of death because in a way our worldview of separation has made us very fearful of death whereas this understanding and ancient wisdom and indigenous teachings show us how to live life to the full. And also appreciate that we're here on our earth walk, but we are spiritual beings undertaking an earthwalk and we don't need to be fearful of transitioning beyond this wonderful earth and the amazing adventures that we have here but we don't need to be afraid of passing beyond that.

Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks so much Jude. This has been wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Do you have any closing thoughts? Where can people find you? How can the community support the work or how can you support anyone that is in the right phase to connect with you in whatever way and level? Thank you, Ale. Well, I actually feel it's actually the work that you do and the communities you're building because back in 2017, I co-founded something called Whole World View.

wholeworld-view.org. And that's full of resources and invitations to serve the unitive understanding and experience embodying this awareness. I don't work with people individually anymore. I did that for many decades. But what I realized was the same patterns just as we're talking about fractal patterns and scaling up and scaling down play out personally in families and communities and globally.

So my work now really is supporting how we might by seeing the world through lenses of wholeness, a lens of wholeness make different choices not just on personal levels but on global levels. So we have a newsletter, we have the website, there's lots of other resources and I think it's to you and people like you where on a personal level and community building level people can come and be part of a community that understands this journey and walks this journey together.